John Ondrasik, also known by his stage name, Five for Fighting, is a Grammy-nominated recording artist who released several number-one hits in the early 2000s, including his single, “Superman,” which became widely known as a 9/11 anthem.
“You know, silent majorities become silent minorities if nobody speaks up,“ he says. ”For me, making a record was really how you made a statement.”
Mr. Ondrasik is back in the spotlight for his songs about the 2021 Afghanistan withdrawal, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the Oct. 7, 2023, Hamas attack against Israel.
“Many in the music business, particularly with Israel, have historically shamed our industry for all time because they’re afraid to speak out with common sense, moral clarity,” Mr. Ondrasik says. “One thing that I think folks don’t realize, especially on the right, is how critical the arts are to changing culture.”
Watch the video:
We dive into his songwriting and look at how his music took him to war-torn Ukraine and Israel. We also get an exclusive, unplugged performance of two of Mr. Ondrasik’s hit singles.
Views expressed in this video are opinions of the host and guest, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek:
John Ondrasik, it’s such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
John Ondrasik:
Thank you for having me, Jan.
Mr. Jekielek:
You’ve written songs about the Afghanistan withdrawal, the Ukraine war, and October 7th. But the song that I remember you wrote back in 2001 was Superman.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Yes.
Mr. Jekielek:
It became an anthem of sorts for 9/11.
Mr. Ondrasik:
It’s surreal sitting here in New York City across the street from Madison Square Garden. Whenever I come to town, I flash back to the Concert for New York. My career was a fluke. I’m a 15-year overnight success. For me, the music business was a grind for a long time, and when we released “Superman,” nobody wanted to play it.
It was a piano song and a ballad. This was during the age of Lilith Fair, boy bands, and grunge music, so it was an anomaly. It wasn’t 1977 with Billy Joel and Elton John. It was kind of a miracle that Superman caught on. I was actually in England on 9/11. Like everybody else, I called everybody I knew in New York. I sat there for 10 days. No planes were flying. I finally landed in O'Hare Airport and literally kissed the tarmac to be back in the United States.
I didn’t realize that “Superman” had become an anthem, particularly in New York City and D.C., recognizing the heroes of 9/11. Even to this day, I keep in contact with many of the firefighters and their families.
But it showed me at a very young age why music can matter. We talk about fame, fortune, hits, and tickets, but that night when I played the concert for New York and saw The Who blow the roof off Madison Square Garden and give all of those people who'd been down at Ground Zero, digging through the rubble, an avenue to release, to cry, to sing, to scream, I saw that night, why music matters. It was seeing how music can move mountains, move messages, give people solace in a way nothing else can. Maybe 25 years later, seeing that song and other songs still connect that way, as a songwriter, it’s very humbling.
Mr. Jekielek:
I listened to Superman several times on YouTube, and it now has 100 million views. It clearly still has some resonance with the public.
Mr. Ondrasik:
There are a lot of songs about the character of Superman. I didn’t realize how many there were until I wrote it and put it out. But in my song, Superman doesn’t actually want to be Superman. He doesn’t want to be everything to everybody. Sometimes in life, we feel we have to be the rock, and we have to be everything to everybody.
But at the end of the day, we’re all human, we all have fallibilities, we all have issues, and that’s what makes us beautiful. When “Superman” came out, the record company called and said, “John, something really strange is happening with your song. It’s being purchased by adults.” Perplexed, I asked, “What do you mean adults?” They explained, “Older people are buying your song. People in their 30s and 40s.”
I said, “Older people?” They confirmed, “Yes, older people.” They meant that it wasn’t just kids buying my song “Superman.” But at the end of the day, it’s important to take care of yourself before taking care of others.
This common theme has persisted over the past 25 years. It’s worth mentioning that it’s the only song that lulls my two-year-old to sleep at night. Parents, you’re welcome.
Mr. Jekielek:
Earlier, we were discussing how your name, Five for Fighting, actually originates from hockey, because you were a hockey fan. You were in Toronto in 1993 when the Toronto Maple Leafs made it to the playoffs. I remember that time vividly. It was my first year of university, and it was a momentous occasion.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Yes, it was Wayne Gretzky and Doug Gilmore in one of the greatest playoff series of all time. In 1999, the record company felt that the era of the singer-songwriter was fading, so they wanted a band name. I proposed the name Five for Fighting after witnessing a fight during a hockey game. I expected Marty McSorley and Bob Probert to really dislike the name. Surprisingly, they loved it, but I thought they were crazy. It sounded more like someone who should be opening for Metallica. Nevertheless, considering the battles I’ve fought with my songs, Five for Fighting seems appropriate now.
Mr. Jekielek:
Your causes don’t fit neatly into the political spectrum.
Mr. Ondrasik:
With my three latest three songs, I hoped each one would be my last. They convey moral messages rather than political ones. “Blood on My Hands” highlights the Afghanistan withdrawal. It’s about the injustice of promising someone support and then abandoning them to terrorists. Leaving your citizens vulnerable to terrorists is indefensible. To me, this is not a political statement, but a logical one.
In the case of Ukraine, when Putin invades, as Americans, we should stand in solidarity with those fighting for freedom against tyranny. With the October 7th attack, when people commit acts of violence, rape, pillage, and desecrate innocent lives, it’s unequivocally wrong. There are no justifications. For me, these messages are rooted in morality. I understand that in our tribalistic world, they may be interpreted politically. However, this is how I perceive it.
Before performing each song at my concerts, I provide some context. When I discuss “Blood on My Hands” and the withdrawal, I make it clear that if a Republican president had committed the same actions, the song’s message would remain the same, and only the names would change. But in this tribal world, it’s certainly an anomaly.
Mr. Jekielek:
How do you see yourself in this polarized world?
Mr. Ondrasik:
I see myself as someone with a worldview who also happens to be a songwriter. We all have opinions, and honestly, it’s a delicate balancing act for me. I’ve always had a distaste for celebrities who use their platform to lecture us about politics as if they are morally superior. Sadly, many in Hollywood engage in this behavior.
However, there is a long tradition of songwriting that addresses the world around us, like the protest songs of the 60s. In a way, I see myself as a modern-day protest songwriter, which was never my original aspiration. But seeing how our culture reacts to certain issues, particularly with Israel, and witnessing the fear in the music industry about speaking out with moral clarity, gives me the motivation to say something.
Mr. Jekielek:
Isn’t that risky? You could get canceled.
Mr. Ondrasik:
When I wrote the Afghanistan song, almost everyone advised against releasing it due to this current cancel culture. I must admit that I did hesitate. If I were 30 years younger and trying to make a career in music, I don’t know if I would have taken that risk. Fortunately, I’m at a stage in my career where I have some security, and I never really belonged to that crowd anyway.
However, 30 years ago, I wrote a song called “The Last Great American” about John McCain and his refusal to leave his fellow soldiers behind in Vietnam. When I released “Blood on My Hands,” there was some backlash, but I also received numerous emails from Afghan veterans who felt devastated by the withdrawal. Some had even contemplated suicide. That song gave them a voice and reassured them that their feelings were acknowledged.
The situation is similar with Israel. Millions of Jewish people around the world feel betrayed and abandoned. Especially in the arts, there is a lack of support and moral clarity. But when they hear a song like mine, they feel understood and validated. Music has a unique way of connecting people and expressing emotions that nothing else can achieve. When Israel shared my video for “OK,” I had a small glimpse into what it feels like to be Jewish, even though I am not Jewish myself. One doesn’t have to be Jewish to condemn Hamas.
Mr. Jekielek:
Or specifically, the events of October 7th.
Mr. Ondrasik:
That’s really what the song is about—we’re not okay. Something is seriously broken in our society when we can’t make simple statements, when people are afraid to say, “Release the hostages,” without fearing backlash. Even though the surface of my song is about Israel and Hamas, it’s truly about civilization and those who want to tear it down. That’s what you’re referring to as cancel culture, where everyone is so paranoid to say anything. It shows that something is really broken in America. We can see this issue in the media as well.
Mr. Jekielek:
I often hear a lot about the negative side, and sometimes focus on that too much. I want to hear about the people who have been reaching out to you, like the veterans who say, “Hey, you’ve given me a voice.” Can you tell us about those people?
Mr. Ondrasik:
The honor of my career has been performing for our troops. Gary Sinise and I go on USO tours. We wouldn’t be where we are today without the support of our military families, veterans, and active military personnel. After our withdrawal, many of my friends were devastated and disgusted. anI spoke with many of them after the song was released. It got so crazy that I even started receiving calls from people trapped in Afghanistan.
I worked closely with incredible Green Beret NGOs; Save Our Allies, Project Pineapple, and Project Exodus Relief, who are literally saving lives. Through these operations, I had the opportunity to meet many heroes. Though I didn’t go to Afghanistan, I met with people on Capitol Hill and got to know them.
It broke a lot of hearts when General Milley and General Austin said that the Afghanistan situation was a great success. It broke my heart because we expect presidents to sometimes make questionable decisions, but we always thought that the adults in the room, our generals, would say the right thing and be honest with us. When they didn’t, it shattered many hearts and minds.
I received thousands of emails from Afghan veterans and veterans in general. I still have conversations with people like Tulsi Gabbard and Green Beret Congressman Mike Waltz about what we can do to help those who are suffering. When you have an impact like that and you see that you’re helping these true heroes, it gives you energy and satisfaction. Whatever negativity comes your way and no matter how people scream at you, it becomes irrelevant over time.
For example, if you are performing in Ukraine with a Ukrainian orchestra at a destroyed airport outside of Kiev, in front of the symbol of freedom for Ukraine, the Maria airplane, and talking to these Ukrainians, feeling their energy - realizing that here’s an American who has come from halfway around the world to sing with them about freedom - that kind of stuff is so powerful that the negative stuff just rolls off your back.
Mr. Jekielek:
Conflicts like Ukraine and Russia are often reduced to geopolitics, but it’s important to remember that real people are involved.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Yes, of course.
Mr. Jekielek:
Your point is that these are people fighting for their freedom.
Mr. Ondrasik:
They’re actually fighting for their survival. Through the arts, we are trying to address this critical civilizational culture war. It’s not just about Hamas vs. Israel. It’s a battle between civilization and those who want to destroy it. Not only is the UN a problem, but also Hamas, Iran, China, and Putin. They are all interconnected.
As part of our efforts, we are fostering collaborations between artists from Ukraine, Israel, Iranian dissidents, Palestinian dissidents, Taiwanese dissidents, and Chinese dissidents. The goal is to emphasize that this is all connected. We can look back to Reagan’s axis of evil, and it is still relevant today. If we try to compartmentalize these issues, we are doing ourselves a disservice. There are evil actors who are actively trying to dismantle our Western way of life and the freedom and liberty that we cherish.
With music, you have many artists writing about the world around them. You can look back in time and listen to them and get a sense of history. When you listen to music from the 60s, you can better understand that time period. Perhaps the fact that nobody’s writing about these issues says something about the current state of affairs. Furthermore, the fact that many prominent figures in the Jewish community are hesitant to speak about October 7th also speaks volumes.
The indoctrination of many young people through platforms like TikTok, and the dissemination of oppressive, woke, and genocidal propaganda by certain artists, also raises concerns about where we are headed. As a parent of two young adults who will inherit this world, I feel it is important for me to be a voice and provide a different perspective, hoping to empower others to speak up.
Mr. Jekielek:
I remember the music of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. But with just a few exceptions, my interest ends there. Is this a general sentiment, or am I just an old guy living in the past.
Mr. Ondrasik:
We’re both old guys living in the past. Typically, the music that resonates with you throughout your life is the music you loved during your teenage years or in your 20s. Personally, I like the songwriters from the 70s, like Led Zeppelin and Queen, because that’s the music I grew up with. We tend to have a special connection to the music we discover in our teenage years. That’s what keeps channels like “70s on 7” on Sirius in business.
But music has changed. When we were young, we had limited options. We would buy records from the record store, watch a few TV channels, and listen to the radio. Now, with video games, the internet, and platforms like TikTok, there is an overwhelming amount of content vying for kids’ attention. In many ways, music has become just one piece of a much larger media landscape. There are many people who consume music, but very few are true music fans.
Of course, the music industry has undergone significant changes. Gone are the days of tour support and developing artists. People tend to forget that Bruce Springsteen didn’t break through until his third record. It’s just not something that happens anymore.
Nowadays, we have a short attention span. Very few artists make full albums anymore. For those who are under 40, they may not even know what an album is. These days, it’s all about releasing singles and getting instant gratification.
For me, making a record used to be how one made a statement. It was a different approach. Now, as someone who has experienced some success in my career and is now on the other side of it all, I can be a curmudgeon and reminisce about the good old days when we were making music and scoring hits. But things are certainly different now.
One thing that often goes unnoticed, especially among those on the Right, is how critical the arts are in shaping culture. My old friend Andrew Breitbart always said that politics is downstream of culture. If you don’t include the arts, which I refer to as soft power, in the culture war, you’re bound to lose. We’re seeing that now.
Many on the Left, along with young artists who have been indoctrinated with this oppressor/oppressed wokeism, have large voices and platforms. When there’s no counter-narrative and all the younger generation hears is that ideology, it’s no surprise that many of them fall under its spell.
Mr. Jekielek:
You brought your guitar with you. Let’s revisit the past here.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Let’s go back to the future. My daughter Olivia, who is currently in London, graciously allowed me to stay in her apartment. This is her beautiful Taylor guitar. Although “Superman” was originally written on piano, it’s interesting to hear it played on a different instrument. Here’s a little bit of “Superman.”
I can’t stand to fly
I’m not that naive
I’m just out to find
The better part of me
I’m more than a bird, I’m more than a plane
I’m more than some pretty face beside a train
And it’s not easy to be me
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I'll never see
It may sound absurd, but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed, but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
And it’s not easy to be me
Up, up and away, away from me
Well, it’s all right, you can all sleep sound tonight
I’m not crazy
Or anything
I can’t stand to fly
I’m not that naive
Men weren’t meant to ride
With clouds between their knees
I’m only a man in a silly red sheet
Digging for kryptonite on this one way street
Only a man in a funny red sheet
Looking for special things inside of me
Inside of me
Inside me
Inside me
Inside of me
I’m only a man
In a funny red sheet
I’m only a man
Looking for a dream
I’m only a man
In a funny red sheet
And it’s not easy
It’s not easy to be
Me
Mr. Jekielek:
Wow. I’ve heard the term “unplugged” over the years when it comes to music, and it just dawned on me that this is what it truly means. We have Ondrasik unplugged right here.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Happy Friday and unplugged indeed.
Mr. Jekielek:
That was fantastic. One line that really resonated with me was, “Heroes get to dream too.” Can you please share how you ended up in Ukraine during the war?
Mr. Ondrasik:
It was kind of a wild experience, actually. I wrote the song,”Can One Man Save the World?” for Ukraine. I wanted to do something for Poland, because Poland had taken in four million refugees. I had a friend who’s very connected in the State Department. I said, “I got this idea. Let’s sing,”Can One Man Save the World?” with a Polish orchestra.”
She called back in a few days and said, “How would you like to go to Ukraine and sing the song with the Ukrainian orchestra?”
I said, “How would that work?” She goes, “A million things have to happen, but we could get the orchestra to Kiev for three days. Let me work on it. Start writing the arrangement. Don’t tell anybody. You can tell your wife, but no one else. We need operational security. This has to be like a military mission.”
My violin player and I were in the back of the van traveling across the country and arranging the song on our laptops. After the last show, I came off stage and got an email with a plane ticket to Krakow for the next day. I had a long talk with my wife that night and I’m very grateful she let me go. We flew to Krakow and got a car to take us to the border.
The guy drove 200 miles an hour getting us there. He didn’t speak a word of English. He pushed me and two members of the production team out the door. We didn’t know what to do, so we started walking the mile to the border. Everybody’s coming towards us, but nobody’s going our way. We got through the border. We were supposed to get a car, but that wasn’t working, because all the gas was being used by the military.
Eventually, we got to Lviv and boarded a train with the U.S. Congressmen, Dan Crenshaw and Brian Fitzpatrick. They let us board their train for which I’m forever grateful, and we got to Kiev. Typically, you’re supposed to play underground. You see people performing in the subways because of all the air raids. We were informed that there was a chance we could perform at the Antonov Airport, which has the airplane, Maria, a symbol of Ukrainian independence. It’s on their army patch.
Finally, we were allowed to do the performance. We put the quartet in front of this plane that had been destroyed by Putin at the outset of the war. They put me in puddles of jet fuel with blown up tanks. We performed this song and shot this video outside of Kiev. Every member of that orchestra had either had a family member killed, missing, or were on the front lines. My interpreter was an 18-year-old girl who six months earlier was a bartender and now was in the army. They all had this fortitude and stoicism.
There was a final point that brought it all together for me. As we were rehearsing the song, I noticed an entourage of people in military garb coming over. It turns out this was the general who approved us to be there. He said, “Thanks for coming. The orchestra got very moved, because he was like their Schwarzkopf, the face of the war. Then through an interpreter he said. “Let me hear the song. You saw the orchestra stiffen and be moved. He was surrounded by these big Rambo-type dudes with sunglasses and AK-47s.
We started to play in this setting of a blown-up airport. The orchestra played with vigor, they played with honor, they played with fight, and they played with freedom. Halfway through the song, you could see the general and some of these big Rambo guys putting on their sunglasses because they were starting to cry. I lost it and got very emotional.
At the end, when we stopped, there was this silence that probably was four or five seconds, but it seemed like four or five months. You felt the weight of the moment and the weight of what these people were going through. You felt the power of this collaboration.
Mr. Jekielek:
Please tell us about the Hostage Square performance.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Hostage Square was also quite intense. I was on another tour and had six days off. Since my song “OK,” has become an anthem for Jewish people worldwide, I received numerous requests to come to Israel. I had been doing press in Israel and the United States. I had five days off and reached out to some friends at the AJC (American Jewish Committee).
I have developed friendships with various Jewish organizations, such as Stand With Us. We were able to organize a trip to Israel. Initially, the plan was to meet some IDF (Israel Defense Forces) soldiers at Sheba Hospital, which we did. Additionally, I had been speaking with some hostage families and planned to meet them as well. However, there was no plan to perform at Hostage Square.
Then, on a Thursday night, there was a small event for one of the hostage families where they had a casual jam session. They asked if I would play a few songs, and I agreed. It turned out that the leader of the hostage forum, who oversees the entire Hostage Square outreach for the hostage families, was present. She informed me about their regular Saturday night event which is broadcast nationwide, and asked if I would consider performing for it. I said, “Of course.”
Mr. Jekielek:
Where is Hostage Square located, and what takes place there?
Mr. Ondrasik:
Hostage Square is in the heart of Tel Aviv. It serves as an outreach forum for the hostage families. The square features a stage for the families and can be seen as a shrine in many ways. Thousands of people gather there every Saturday night, and the event is televised. There are exhibits, including a tunnel that serves as an example of a Hamas tunnel, providing visitors with an understanding of what the hostages endured. As you walk through the tunnel, there are sound effects mimicking screaming. It is a very powerful and moving experience.
Right before I performed, they made an announcement that was new to me. They asked everyone to find shelter and cover their heads in the event of a missile attack. Keep in mind, there were 10,000 people present. I was ready to run to my hotel and hide under my bed, but nobody left. Then I performed “Superman,” and, “OK.” It was very moving. It reminded me of the Concert for New York. Literally the distance from me to you, there were people holding photos of their children who were hostages.
It reminded me of looking out in Madison Square Garden at those family members who lost loved ones. When I came off and was hugging some hostage families, the coordinator said, “By the way, you need to be in your hotel by 11 pm because it’s very likely Iran is going to attack.” This was about 8:30 pm. My son was with me too. I said, ”You guys heard, right?“ They said, ”Yes, we heard.“ I said, ”Okay, let’s go. We’ve got to go to the hotel right now.”
This one guy, David, said, “But John, we have a dinner reservation. I’ve waited two weeks for this dinner reservation.” That’s who these Israelis are. They have a way to find joy in the darkest of times. They have this fortitude where things that would make us cower just roll off their back. I’m like, “Maybe we can at least have dinner at the hotel.” We go to the hotel, and they’re all drinking and talking. I’m looking at my watch, and I run to my room at 10:30 pm and tell my son to get in the room.
Of course, at 11 pm, Iran attacks. I call them and say, “All right, guys, they’re attacking, and I’m in the safe room.” They say, “The drones will take eight hours to get here. We’re at the bar.” That’s who they are. It was powerful for me to see the fortitude and attitude and strength of the Israelis, which is similar to the Ukrainians. Americans could learn something from these folks. We’ve lost some of that.
Mr. Jekielek:
Let’s hear your song titled, “OK.”
Mr. Ondrasik:
This is a time for choosing, this is a time to mourn
The moral man is losing forbidden, lost for long
I don′t understand, I don’t understand, how you can look yourself
in the mirror
I don’t understand, I don′t understand, how did that blood
flood your eyes
We, we are, we are not, we, we are, we are not OK
Yeah, hide behind your babies. yeah, hide behind your kid
The Harvard hands has rabies, they′d hold a cost again
I don’t understand, I don′t understand, how you can look yourself
in the mirror
I don’t understand, I don′t understand, how did that blood
spill from your eyes
We, we are, we are not, we, we are, we are not OK
Evil’s on the march, evil’s on the march, time to face the test.
Evil’s on the march, evil’s on the march, need every good woman, every good man.
We, we are, we are not, we, we are, we are not OK
Mr. Jekielek:
How did you come up with the lyrics?
Mr. Ondrasik:
Actually, the words were partially inspired by a speech that Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, gave very early after October 7th. He came out and said, “Something’s really broken. We’re not alright when 24 hours after these atrocities, thousands of people are celebrating in Times Square.” But I really didn’t think about writing a song until we saw the collapse of the media that became, in many cases, Hamas propagandists. Then also, there were the mobs on our college campuses, which we can still see today.
It’s not just in our country, it’s all over the world. It’s not just Jewish people who are not okay, it’s all of us. If we don’t take steps to address this, silent majorities become silent minorities if nobody speaks up. People hear the song, “OK” and see the video and they think, “It’s a pro-Israel song.” I say, “The heroine in my video is a Palestinian woman calling out Hamas for stealing the aid. If you really care about Palestinian people, you understand there’s no hope while they’re under the yoke of Hamas.”
We have become so consumed with memes and taking sides that we have forgotten the simple concepts of good vs. evil and right vs. wrong. It may sound cliché, but sometimes it really is that simple. Hamas desires to cause harm to both Palestinians and Israelis. If we all understood this and stood up against it, perhaps it wouldn’t happen. However, many institutions have become paralyzed and morally compromised. It will require each and every one of us to fight back and correct our course.
Mr. Jekielek:
John, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you for visiting. Do you have any final thoughts?
Mr. Ondrasik:
Not to sound too much like a fanboy, but I truly appreciate your mission in not simply pandering to whatever partisan piece will generate likes on any given day. It’s crucial for our nation to return to a point where we are okay. We will never be perfect, but right now we are far from okay. We need to find our way back to being okay, and I believe your mission is honorable.
Mr. Jekielek:
John Ondrasik, such a pleasure to have you on the show.
Mr. Ondrasik:
Thank you.
This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.
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