The Chinese communist regime has been aggressively seeking to expand its control of the Pacific Islands through political warfare, bribery, and “gray-zone” activities, says David Panuelo, the former president of the Federated States of Micronesia.
During his tenure, which lasted from 2019 to 2023, he penned a number of letters to other leaders in the region to raise awareness about the Chinese regime’s belligerent tactics.
“I wasn't doing it because I wanted to be bold. I wanted to do it to protect our citizens and the sovereignty of our nation,” Mr. Panuelo says.
Watch the clip:
So why is this region so important? It’s part of the “Second Island Chain” of defense in America’s military strategy, and is critical to deterring a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.
🔴 WATCH the full episode (43 minutes) on Epoch Times: https://ept.ms/S1205DavidPanuelo
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek: President David Panuelo, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
David Panuelo: Jan, thank you for having me on your program in Washington, D.C. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm a fan of The Epoch Times.
Mr. Jekielek: Thank you so much and welcome to America. I've been watching what you've been doing over the past several years in the Federated States of Micronesia, where you were the president, standing up to communist China. It is very uncharacteristic behavior, I might add, and something people could learn from. But it wasn't always like that. I've been reading several letters that you wrote. At the beginning, you're extremely cordial in this Pacific Islander way that we love and cherish. By the end of a one or two-year period, you're very direct and very pointed about some very egregious behavior on the part of the Chinese regime. Tell me how this all happened.
President Panuelo: Jan, thank you. Our country, I want to say it very clearly and upfront that we are, in our foreign policies, friends to all and enemies to none, really. Based on that premise, we have good relations with every country around the world. With the United States being our enduring partner, the treaty that we have is very important. We're going to go and do that. But on your question, in terms of China, China is a beautiful country, a beautiful culture and tradition, people are friendly, but it's the government that over time, as the president of our country, I felt I need to take a strong stance to make sure that the sovereignty of our nation is protected.
I was invited by President Xi to go to China, and all the treatment that was given to me is appreciated, how the head of state is treated in China. But overall, over the course of time, I learned that I must take some bold actions to make sure that the sovereignty of our nation is protected and also for the Pacific region as a whole, because security is very important, so I did write several letters, one, when Prime Minister Sogavare signed the security agreement with China.
Mr. Jekielek: That's, of course, the president of the Solomon Islands.
President Panuelo: Yes. The Prime Minister of the Solomon Islands, and because we shared the region when that happened. Of course, as a Pacific leader, I wrote to Prime Minister Sogavare in a very friendly manner, because he's like a brother to me. As a family, we share what we're concerned about. I did share about the concern, what we see around the world, that it can potentially happen in Solomon Islands and escalate tensions. The letter elicited the Prime Minister to also share with the Pacific Islands Forum the promise that China will not militarize the Solomon Islands, which can make a harmonious region become less secure. It raises the level of escalation.
Mr. Jekielek: Do you think that anything has changed since that time? Do you feel like that promise has been kept?
President Panuelo: We have to monitor that carefully, because as you can see in recent events, with the support of China into Solomon Islands, with the Pacific Games, for example, has postponed a very important democratic process, the elections. But what I think we Pacific leaders must be very cautious about is when foreign influence comes into the country and upsets the system of government, then infighting can happen.
The Solomon Islands have that history. In the past, other Pacific nations sent police forces to help settle the escalation of a conflict in the Solomon Islands. I think those are important. The Pacific Islands Forum is the premier regional organization that can also serve that purpose to make sure that the Pacific works together with strength in numbers, to make sure that we keep it as peaceful as possible.
Mr. Jekielek: Of course. You're saying that, as we know, in the Solomon Islands, the Chinese did provide some security support. That reminds me, the Federated States of Micronesia has a very deep relationship with the U.S.
President Panuelo: Correct.
Mr. Jekielek: Mainly, it relies, by treaty, on all its protection. Explain that relationship to me. I also want to talk about why did that deal get struck, do you think?
President Panuelo: I must emphasize, and cannot overemphasize enough, the importance of the Compact of Free Association between the FSM [Federated States of Micronesia] and the U.S., similar to Palau and the Marshall Islands. We call it the freely associated states or the compact nations. We do have a treaty that comprises the main pillars of economic cooperation, political and security or defense cooperation, which is embedded in that treaty, and it serves as the cornerstone policy for the bigger Pacific region.
That cooperation gives the U.S. certain rights and FIDO powers when it comes to security. The very big exclusive economic zone and airspace of the three countries combined is a very important strategic part of U.S. operations in the Pacific. It gives the U.S., from California to Hawaii to the Marshall Islands and FSM Palau, a very uninterrupted, contiguous space, an open space where the U.S. can cross to the bigger Asian countries. You can imagine how important that is. I put it to the U.S. leaders that it is very important and we look forward to the approval of the compact in the U.S. Congress.
Mr. Jekielek: Maybe I'll get you to speak to this. World War II tells us how important it was, correct?
President Panuelo: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: But maybe if you can speak to that briefly. There were a number of key battles in the Pacific.
President Panuelo: In the Solomon Islands, you can talk about the Guadalcanal battle in Peleliu, in the Truk Lagoon during the Second World War. These were among the very, very biggest wars that broke out in our Pacific region. So, we know what war is, when we talk about war. Our ancestors, our grandfathers lived through the war, so those are things that we don't want repeated in the Pacific, let alone in Micronesia.
Mr. Jekielek: I'm going to highlight for everybody how strategically important for U.S. naval operations that region is. That change in the balance of power there has a profound impact on the ability of the U.S. to project power west.
President Panuelo: It is very important, and the United States military bases in Guam and in Hawaii are well known. The fact is that our population combined in Hawaii and Guam is larger than two of our states in the Federated States of Micronesia. That unique relationship allows our nation, young men and women, to also serve in the U.S. Armed Forces in higher per capita than any of the states in the United States. So, you see how unique that is.
Mr. Jekielek: That's fascinating. I had no idea about that. That's an incredible statistic.
President Panuelo: Yes, it is an incredible statistic.
Mr. Jekielek: What did the Chinese Communist Party do throughout your tenure that made you change your view or feel like you had to step out and become very, very pointed with your criticisms of what you saw the CCP doing and how different leaders were reacting? I'm talking about a few of your past comments here.
President Panuelo: My first letter to Sogavare was prompted by the security agreement. We shared that Pacific region. The second letter was directed to the leaders of the Pacific, my brothers and sisters of the Pacific, regarding the Common Development agreement, which China was proposing to be signed by all the Pacific leaders during a meeting in Fiji. We reviewed that Common Development agreement and learned that by signing that we would have given away and compromised our sovereignty.
Through tedious review, that would allow Chinese to come in and also look at the minerals of our exclusive economic zone. It would give them access to knowing who's entering our country and who's getting out of our country through electronic means, and through customs and immigration, among other things. I wrote to the Pacific leaders, brothers and sisters, to warn them about the Common Development agreement.
Upon review, leaders did find out that would cause the problem of compromising our sovereignty. From that time, the agreement was shelved. I think until now, I have not seen that coming about. But we have other examples of direct agreements on the blue economy that I didn't give agreement to or authorize to be signed.
Here, Chinese diplomats in the embassy locally, working with our Secretary of Foreign Affairs and with our officials insisted that they must sign it, even though they heard our top cabinet say, "The President doesn't authorize this to be signed," and they kept going at it. I can cite many examples, but we have to stand up strong and bold and draw the line in the sand to say, “If this encroaches on our sovereignty, then it's not good for the sovereign interests of our nation and collectively for the Pacific Island countries.”
Mr. Jekielek: I wanted to comment on the Common Development agreement. Thank goodness that got shelved. I often think of what the CCP's doing in the Pacific as a model of how they infiltrate and influence and control and buy all sorts of other places. It's very, it's powerful to hear. Maybe you've given a couple of examples, but maybe you can give me a few of the other egregious things that you noticed that really got you thinking and changing your mind.
President Panuelo: With the Common Development agreement, the letter that I wrote out has picked up some of that steam, in a way, so to speak. Then I issued the third letter to our leaders of the FSM. I targeted the entire leadership, because we're comprised of a federation; four states, municipal governments with state governments, and two federal governments. I targeted the entire leadership to warn them of some of these activities that can be subtle in nature. You won't see it coming or it could be aggressive in some ways, because we've experienced some of that, what they call wolf diplomacy, depending on the personality of the diplomats who are there.
Some are subtle and some are very aggressive. We've experienced all of that during my administration. As a president, I would go to a Japanese function to celebrate the birthday of the emperor, for example. They would hold a very big event. From when I walked in, the Chinese ambassador to the FSM would constantly follow me and whisper in my ears to be careful, because they heard I was going to Palau.
They don't like it, because Palau is sympathetic to Taiwan, those kinds of things. Until the point where it was so persistent that I had to stop and talk to the ambassador and say, "Ambassador, don't ever treat me like that,” because he was persistently warning a head of state. I warned him not to ever do that again, because we're a sovereign nation. He can say what he wants, but he cannot be directing us in that way.
I've come out by being very vocal, one-on-one with them, and there were folks who were listening. When we came together to meet Palau and Marshall Islands, because they recognize Taiwan, they would be warning us. As a sovereign country, how do you take it, with that diplomat who's consistently and persistently telling you that in your ear? I just had to stop and really point at him and warn him not to ever do that ever again to me.
With my third letter that I sent out, there's also direct evidence of one of the governors coming to me, from the state of Kosrae, to tell me that there were agents from China who went and saw him to try to go against my letter. The governor confided in me and he said, "Mr. President, of course I told them no, because that would be treason."
Mr. Jekielek: It's so outrageous. I'm smiling, because this is, of course, what the CCP does, it's its modus operandi almost, but it's so outrageous and blatant. I think your example is very interesting, of just insisting that something that's already been decided be changed, presumably, because you have the backing of the whole Chinese regime behind you, so you feel like you can do that.
President Panuelo: Yes. I don't think the Pacific leaders, especially in Micronesia, should feel like we're walking on eggshells, that when we have to take strong positions, because we're in defense of our own sovereignty, our national interest that is best for the security of our citizens, we shouldn't be dissuaded just by thinking, "This is going to be bad, because we're going to get repercussions of criticism or some action to come back." We need to stand up strong as sovereign nations to defend the interest of our country in every way that we can. I think that message is very important to demonstrate.
Mr. Jekielek: You just reminded me that you prevented the appointment of , at least as long as you were president, one of the appointees for ambassador.
President Panuelo: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: Tell me about that and what happened.
President Panuelo: When China presented their ambassador to succeed the ambassador I was talking about, who's always using wolf diplomacy, we reviewed the background of that proposed ambassador through what they call agreement. We noticed with some background checking that there has been a very strong security background of that ambassador, and that's just common sense, and also looking ahead in the cooperation we have with China. This is the point that I've always made, that our relationship with China is always and will always be only on economic and technical terms and cannot be strategic.
But China always takes the opportunity to unilaterally come out with press releases that call our relationship a strategic partnership, even though we've said, "No it's not a strategic relationship." But they've always done that and they're good with the propaganda of getting out that message.
At the point when I was a president, I also shared with our government that they cannot sign any joint agreement that says strategic partnership. You have to differentiate that in your alliance with countries. Then I think if we do that, it's not going to be the kind of policy or agreement that we want, especially if we have a compact treaty with the U.S. with the pillar of economic, political, and security cooperation.
Mr. Jekielek: There are also examples when you opted not to sign some agreement and then the PRC diplomats said that FSM is on board.
President Panuelo: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: That seems incredibly egregious. Tell me about that.
President Panuelo: It is. It's documented in emails that have been exchanged, where our Secretary of Foreign Affairs was fuming, “How could he be doing that when he already knows that the head of state says no to any agreement, but he keeps pushing that he signs it anyway?” Those are the examples that I think are important to understand, even to the point where, as a president, I had to be very cautious of the recommendations that's coming out of our embassy in Beijing, of our diplomats.
Because it's almost filled with the content that China wants to push on to the government, for example, the trade agreement that we're talking about. When that happens, then maybe it's a good intention by our diplomats, but they must know that, first and foremost, they represent our interest, not the interest of China. That fine line has to be determined, what is in the best interest of our nation when we're signing these documents that are being recommended.
Mr. Jekielek: I want to highlight that this seems like an incredible amount of pressure when you have the second-largest economy in the world, an aggressive superpower like Communist China, doing this. That's a huge pressure on anybody.
President Panuelo: Fortunately, I love my country so much, and representing our country was a passion that I took on. Yes, I'm sure that is going to be pressure on anyone who's leading a nation, but I viewed it as something that is a very sacred crown, that I have to defend our nation and make sure that I make the decisions that are in the best interest of our country, even if it disappoints that superpower.
Because, after all, who am I serving? It's our nation and our citizens. You put it right, but I think leaders must know these elements, even to the point where I went ahead and also put a moratorium on the research vessels coming into our exclusive economic zone, because information that we learned, that it's not only conducting research, but also doing other elements that are not in the best interest of our nation.
Mr. Jekielek: What you just said makes perfect sense to me, but it seems to be a rare position. I'm not just talking about the Pacific, I'm talking about anywhere.
President Panuelo: Yes. For example, I've warmed up to Taiwan also, because they're a democratic entity and strong in trade, in culture, in sports, so I opened up to that. You can see how China was running around meeting all our leaders to try to reverse that. Of course, with the One China policy, our country signed it thirty-three-odd years ago, but the landscape and the evolution of the political scene has changed. The world is changing.
That quickly had Chinese officials meeting our government to go against my actions, I believe, to the point where they had to work in resolution to state that our government still opposes the One China policy and I know the U.S. does too. But I think we need to be bold and open to scenarios that can work for our respective Pacific Island nations.
Mr. Jekielek: I know that your critics back home, and of course the CCP itself, will say, "You might be endangering the whole country or the whole region by what you're doing." How do you react to that?
President Panuelo: I think, first of all, as leaders, we're serving the interests of our nation and serving the interests of our citizens, and then working with the proper allies that have shared values. I think that's important to remember all of the time as a leader. Working together with allies to preserve the rules-based international order, the shared values that we have, is something we need to be strong about. Because every country, especially the superpowers, both the U.S. and China see influence as important, so that they can make sure that their interests are strong in the Pacific Island countries.
But when you talk about democracy vs. authoritarianism and you look at the events that are happening in the world, we need to be strong about it. An example that I want to also share is how China also persistently works with countries to try to tone down human rights issues. One recent example is late October when our country was persuaded to abstain from the vote on that resolution, on the Uyghurs human rights issue. But I think the more that countries can stand up and be strong about these issues, to advocate for the treatment of all people equally, about their human rights, it's important for the collective world to be strong in their voice, and especially at the multilateral center of the world, at the United Nations.
We need to have a clear conscience, in my view. You see the change in my administration during the time I was president. I think we use the softer approach to say we respect the internal affairs of your country, and encourage them to treat everyone with the same human rights. But we see the overall events where that has not changed that behavior. Sometimes, when the world comes together to condemn human rights treatment, I think we need to stand together strong without feeling like we're walking on eggshells. Because the truth is the truth. We need to do that, and with a strong feeling that we are leaders advocating these shared values that are universal.
Mr. Jekielek: I agree with you, and especially when what's happening are some of the worst things that humans can do to each other, such as genocide and crimes against humanity which are egregious, extreme violations that the CCP is regularly involved in. Tell me about how you came about your way of thinking. What is it influenced by?
President Panuelo: I grew up under parents that are very strong in their beliefs. I thank my parents, growing up with many siblings and growing up in the Micronesian culture of respect. I think that's important. I went to school, and I'm one of the leaders who was educated in the United States, at Eastern Oregon University. But at an early age, I remember being in a university, and I was already writing to the second president at the time, in the mid-'80s, asking them to start the FSM Trust Fund, for example.
I was clearly already thinking out already for the future of our nation. Immediately, when I finished university, getting my career course, and getting me in that direction. I started as a young person, as a diplomat, and then served in our embassies in Fiji, where we were a young nation, coming out as a young nation to be integrated with the Pacific Island countries. I trained and worked with the United Nations. I think when I was ready to become a member of Congress, I started my career in public office and then became the ninth president of our country.
It's just from my heart. When you're a leader and you're representing the best interests of your country, you listen to your heart and you listen to information that comes to you to make the best sense of it, in guiding and helping the decision-making. In the presidency, information is very important. We created the Cybersecurity Bureau in our Department of Justice to help with that.
We also, for the first time in the history of our nation, the Office of the President established, through executive order, the Information and Intelligent Services Bureau to guide decisions, so that when Pacific Island nations are limited with the information, to work with allies and make sure you get that information to help in the decision-making.
You can see through the compact that we have a very strong, enduring partnership with the U.S. That's important for the Indo-Pacific region, and the overall security of our nation. We consider ourselves as part of homeland security when it comes to defense. That's how strong our enduring partnership is with the United States.
Mr. Jekielek: I'm thinking back to these letters that you wrote. At least in the first one, you highlight how China is our friend, and the U.S. is our friend. But then as time goes on, you're highlighting China as more of a threat. There is a desire to not have to choose. The status quo is, "I don't have to choose." What do you think about that?
President Panuelo: I've been asked a question a few times by the media, whether, as a small island country, I feel like I'm sandwiched between two superpowers. My pointed answer was no, because I definitely know the best interests of our nation. I think if you know that, it makes it easier. Because we know our trusted partners and who to work with to advance the overall security of the Pacific and the entire world together. When that question was asked of me, I never felt once that I was sandwiched between two superpowers.
Mr. Jekielek: Thinking about your third letter, which was to the various FSM leaders, how did people react to your expose of the CCP?
President Panuelo: I genuinely put out a letter that I thought would be good for leaders, as I was coming to the tail end of my administration, based on the insight and experience that I underwent as a president of our country, highlighting important things. I got a letter from one of our governors in response to that to highlight how important the letter was during that time. He also shared his fears and concerns about the escalation of tension in Micronesia and in the Pacific region. But overall, it's almost like silence from the rest of the leaders.
There was another letter that I sent to the then speaker, who is now the president, Simina, regarding the resolution on the One China policy, because the hearing was canceled when we were preparing to "do the hearing" to help explain the foreign policy decisions that I've taken. They canceled, then went ahead and adopted the resolution, though I felt it was necessary to document the chain of events that was happening. Because as a president, I'm trying to demonstrate that I was very vocal about the things that I do. In everything, we must work together to make sure.
I was vocal when the constitutional crisis was happening in Samoa, with the transition of government from one prime minister to the next. I stood up and wrote a letter to advocate that the constitution must prevail. On the issue of Ukraine, we were the first country to sever diplomatic relations with Russia when they invaded Ukraine. I was trying to demonstrate that, as a nation, even though we're small, our voices are very strong when we work together with our Pacific leaders. I have a strong confidence in the leaders of the Pacific, that working together on these issues will make our region a harmonious and a peaceful region.
Mr. Jekielek: You highlighted the obvious, very special relationship that the U.S. has with these three states and the FSM. What would you like to see the U.S. do at this point? Do you feel like the U.S. is fulfilling its role? Do you feel that there's other things it can do?
President Panuelo: As a former president, looking from the outside into the prism of the U.S. bureaucracy, I get worried and concerned about the non-cooperation, to the extent that it paralyzes the functioning of government in the House of Representatives. We watch it, because the rest of the world also will be impacted by these actions. Clearly, in the context of the FSM and the freely associated states of Palau and Marshall Islands, our compacts are binding in the U.S. Congress.
We went through the very tedious efforts of negotiations and completed that. The U.S. leadership promised us that there's bipartisan support. Now, the most important thing that I see as a former president, to speak very truly, we believe that the United States must approve the compact funding for the three compact nations, because it underpins the security of the Indo-Pacific region.
I hope that the U.S. can see this importance and not to offset it. I think they must put it on the front burner and approve these compact fundings, because a lot of things hinge upon the success of the funding. We're beyond the fiscal year where the old compact has expired, waiting for the approval of these funds to help with the security of Micronesia and the overall larger Pacific region.
Mr. Jekielek: Help with the security of Micronesia and the U.S.
President Panuelo: And the U.S. It's a mutual security relationship that must be, as I have emphasized, a strategically important location our compact nations hold with the United States. Yes, it is important for our security and U.S. security, and the collective security of the Indo-Pacific region.
Mr. Jekielek: I'm going to read something you wrote and get you to comment. China's intent is to "shift those of us with diplomatic relations with China very close into Beijing's orbit, intrinsically tying the whole of our economies and societies to them. The practical impacts, however, of Chinese control over our communications infrastructure, our ocean territory, and the resources within them, and our security space, aside from impacts on our sovereignty, is that it increases the chances of China getting into conflict with Australia, Japan, the United States, and New Zealand, on the day when Beijing decides to invade Taiwan."
President Panuelo: Yes. Overall, if you look at, in the context of the Common Development agreement, it has those elements in there, and the trade agreements, the blue economy agreements that they were pushing on to us, and when a president says no, they were going at it to have it signed by a cabinet member. That's where we look at the overall region to see how this is happening.
Mr. Jekielek: What has been the impact on you and your family of all this?
President Panuelo: I don't get my family involved in this. If I carry the burden myself, then I must carry it myself, because I served as the ninth president of our country and protecting our interest and our sovereignty is first and foremost. The personal cost, of course, is there, because we read the news around the world about what happens to people who do these kinds of things, and especially the retaliation that comes about. I try not to think about these things and not worry about it.
I did talk about the security of former presidents. Our Department of Justice forwarded the travel legislation to our Congress, and I knew it was not going to be acted upon, because I don't think there's been any president in our history who has taken on these types of decisions that are difficult, maybe challenging, and probably bold. But I wasn't doing it because I wanted to be bold. I want to do it to protect our citizens and the sovereignty of our nation.
It wasn't hard for me to do it. The impacts and what the implications may be, I try not to think about it, Jan. Because the bigger good is what I believe should be the outcome from public servants and presidents like myself when they have the opportunity to serve our nation. I thank our citizens for the confidence they have in me and for the period I had, four years, and maybe shorter, because COVID took away two normal years of the governance that I had running and being the president of our nation to serve the best interest of our country.
Mr. Jekielek: I hear your passion and I'm inspired by your passion. Yet, few world leaders seem to share that level of passion when it comes to facing the Chinese regime. What would you say to them?
President Panuelo: It might not be an easy decision for world leaders, but for me, it wasn't difficult, because we have to make sure that the truth is known. I think The Epoch Times is one of the objectives of seeking out the truth. I think, collectively, we have to do that. Because in the complexity of this climate we have today, it's a rarity to come out and speak honestly and boldly of what is good for your country and for the community at large. The truth and transparency is important to come out and advocate for. That's what I did as a president, and I don't think that's a difficult thing to do. At the end of the day, I think we will be happy with the outcome of our decisions. If it has to be bold, then be bold about it, because we want to make sure that the truth comes out.
Mr. Jekielek: President David Panuelo, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show.
President Panuelo: Likewise, Jan. I thank you for having me on your program. Thank you.
Mr. Jekielek: Thank you all for joining President David Panuelo and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Jan Jekielek.
🔴 WATCH the full episode (43 minutes) on Epoch Times: https://ept.ms/S1205DavidPanuelo
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