Dr. Kat Lindley is a family physician and president of the Texas branch of the American Academy of Physicians and Surgeons. She was one of a few doctors using repurposed medications to treat COVID-19 patients early in the pandemic.
We discuss how doctors lost their autonomy over the last two decades and how hospitals are financially incentivized to follow fixed protocols, instead of to do what’s in the best interest of the patients.
“If you do everything by the protocol, then the hospital hits all of those right numbers, all of those right checkboxes, so they get paid the most amount of money they can get paid,” Lindley says.
During this pandemic, Lindley says she saw in America signs of the same totalitarianism she fled from in communist Yugoslavia.
“The state makes you fear something really bad. And then they isolate you so you cannot discuss what’s going on. And then they start telling [you], well, if you do this, I’ll give you a little bit of that—until it gets to the point that you just can’t do anything unless they give you permission,” Lindley says.
We also discuss proposals for a global pandemic treaty and amendments to the international health regulations. “What the WHO [World Health Organization] would like to accomplish is something they call one health, one world. They would like to have global control over any future pandemics that happen,” Lindley says.
Interview trailer:
Watch the full interview: https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-doctors-became-automatons-dr-kat-lindley-on-treating-covid-19-the-corporatization-of-medicine-and-the-whos-global-pandemic-control-ambitions_5169575.html
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jan Jekielek: Kat Lindley, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
Dr. Kat Lindley: Thank you for having me.
Mr. Jekielek: Dr. Lindley, you’ve been practicing medicine here in the U.S. for quite some time in Texas. You originally immigrated from the former Yugoslavia. Please tell us about your path to getting here.
Dr. Lindley: I grew up in Yugoslavia and I lived there until I was 18 years old. It was the time when you have to decide what you want to do and what type of life you want to have as an adult, but there were rumblings of things happening. There were attacks in the northern part of Croatia. We were still Yugoslavia at that time. My family got worried and they decided for me to go to Italy, so they found me a job as a nanny.
I actually left one day before the war started in Yugoslavia. With one suitcase to my name, I got on the ferry to Italy. I didn’t really know the language, but I understood some of it because I’m from Dalmatia. Our dialect is very similar to Italian. I left as an 18-year-old, really a child, because I was very much sheltered at the time, and started a new life. I didn’t realize that it was going to be a completely different life.
Mr. Jekielek: First of all, what an amazing place to grow up on the Dalmatian Coast. I can hardly imagine. It must have been hard to leave. But you escaped an incredibly destructive genocidal war by one day.
Dr. Lindley: It was hard. I actually ended up living with a wonderful family. After the town of Split was attacked, probably for about six, seven months, I couldn’t reach out to home because the lines were cut off. Mainly, we would get the news from television and you had these boats of people from Albania escaping and coming over.
Then, very sporadically you would hear something. But at the time when Split was attacked, they had snipers shooting and it was very difficult because my mom’s sister lived in Serbia. My brother-in-law was from Bosnia, so we are all interconnected. If anyone knows the history of Yugoslavia, this was like five republics with two provinces.
That’s how Tito kept everyone together. When the war started, this was truly a civil war because I had cousins in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia. It was really difficult for all of us.
Mr. Jekielek: This history that you had, those 18 years in the former Yugoslavia, is very important to our discussion and we’re going to bring that up in a moment. Let’s talk about your medical practice and how you came into doing that.
Dr. Lindley: People always ask me, “When did you decide to be a doctor?” I didn’t. What happened is when I came to the States, I actually worked as a nanny for two ophthalmologists and I was going through undergrad at Atlantic University in Florida. One day, one of the eye surgeons said to me, “Why don’t you go to medical school?” I was really a good student and I thought about it for a second and said, “Yes, why don’t I?” I applied to medical school and decided to become a physician.
That’s important because in communist countries like Yugoslavia you don’t dream. You don’t have this thought from when you’re a child, “I’m going to do this, I’m going to be that.” You track into the life you’re going to have. When I came to the States, this country was so very important to me. The idea of freedom, that you can become whoever you want to be if you work really hard is the biggest treasure that we have as a country, because you don’t have that in other places.
Mr. Jekielek: Let’s discuss your philosophy of medicine and what your practice is.
Dr. Lindley: I’m an osteopathic family physician. In osteopathic medicine, one thing we are taught right away is that a person is more than just a body. You treat body, mind, and spirit. When I started my medical education the whole ideology was a little bit different from our allopathic partners. Our schooling is exactly the same. We go through the same residencies and things like that, but we look at a person a little bit differently. I worked in private practice for a while.
I actually even worked for a hospital system as a medical director and I got a little disillusioned by it. Because with the electronic medical records, CMS, Medicare, CPT codes, there are so many rules that you start losing the essence of who you are as a physician, because you have to chart all day long. You have 10, 15 minutes with a patient. Everyone becomes a number, not because you want them to, but it just becomes a reality.
I decided to step out of that system and I actually practice independently. I do direct primary care and it’s an affordable membership fee. It’s just me and a patient. There’s no middleman. They can call me and text me 24/7. When I travel, I’m accessible. If they need to come to my office, they come to the office. But it’s really just that one-on-one relationship and there’s nothing in between us.
Mr. Jekielek: First of all, it makes me think of how medicine is supposed to be and I’m sure you would agree with that.
Dr. Lindley: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: But it also makes me think about what is the reality of medicine in our society today, because what you’re doing is very atypical.
Dr. Lindley: It is. One of the reasons we got caught in this mistrust of medicine that we are currently in after the pandemic and everything that’s happened, is because physicians have lost their autonomy. For the past 10, 15 years, big hospital systems have been acquiring physicians’ practices and big specialty practices, and you then practice what I call the corporate practice of medicine. When you are in the system, whichever the system is, you have to get the labs from the hospital that you work at or whoever they contract with.
You send your patients to the specialist that they have a contract with. You live within that network and you get incentivized or you can lose some money and incentives if you don’t do certain things. You get dictated to by this way of medicine. That also happens in the hospital when someone comes in with a heart issue that we think could possibly be a heart attack.
There’s a protocol that gets initiated the moment a patient enters the doors. Because if you do everything by the protocol, then the hospital hits all of those right numbers, all of those right check boxes, so they get paid the most amount of money they can get paid.
Mr. Jekielek: Basically, you’re saying in this model it’s not just the patient’s care, but also the financial incentives that become very significant?
Dr. Lindley: Exactly.
Mr. Jekielek: Why is it more significant in that model than in primary care, when the independent physician is one-on-one with a patient? Why is it so different?
Dr. Lindley: Let’s take pneumonia, for example. If someone comes into the hospital with pneumonia, they’re going to get blood cultures, certain labs, medications, and IV antibiotics right away, something like that. Then, they’re going to wait for the cultures to come back and see if they did the right thing. They might readjust the medications and things like that. I don’t look at any of that. I look at the patient first, and then based on the exam, history, and other things, I’ll decide what the patient has.
I might not order all the labs that the protocol would ask me to order. I would just order what I think is significant. By doing that, you individualize the medical approach. Especially for patients who have high deductibles or don’t have insurance, you actually save them money, because you’re trying to use your thinking cap. You don’t say, “I have to do this, this, and that.” You just say, “This is what I have and this is what I need,” and that’s what you go with.
Mr. Jekielek: I think of the Hippocratic Oath, which is, do no harm. It seems to me with this model of medicine, this doctor-patient relationship is incredibly important. Other guests that I’ve had on the show have spoken to this, that just like you said, the patient becomes more of a number.
These larger structures, which are incentivized by things other than necessarily the best outcome for the patient, are directly or indirectly influencing your decision-making. My question is, when the pandemic hit, what happened to you?
Dr. Lindley: I was actually in that period when I was transitioning to my new practice. I had my practice and it was going well, but I was working in urgent care to supplement the income because my practice was still growing. In urgent care, I actually remember one of my first Covid patients came in and she was complaining of congestion. She said it wasn’t a big deal, but her O2 saturation level was very low, which was not normal for someone who was speaking so well and had no issues.
I ended up sending her to the hospital and she actually passed away three days later. After that, the system closed and we were told not to see anyone. I was getting paid by being in urgent care. If anyone came with symptoms that we considered Covid, we actually had to send them to the hospital to be triaged through the hospital, be seen, and then taken care of, which didn’t make sense because I’m considered frontline.
Frontline is supposed to figure out what’s going on and do the best we can. We accept that risk. If I didn’t want to do it, I would not have worked. We ended up taking care of just minor emergencies that had nothing to do with Covid, but anything that was Covid-related would go to the hospital. That’s what made me look at this through different eyes. Because in my practice, whoever came in, I just took care of them, treated them, and they did fine. I saw them.
Mr. Jekielek: If there was a compelling reason to go to the hospital, you would send them, as you did.
Dr. Lindley: Yes, definitely, but I saw them in person if I had to see them. At the time, we were all told to wear a mask. Sure, that wasn’t a problem. But the fact that we were told not to see the patients in person, was very alarming to most of us. It just didn’t make sense.
Mr. Jekielek: For the benefit of our audience, you had this urgent care practice associated with the hospital, and then you also had your private practice, which then you transitioned to.
Dr. Lindley: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: Which is where you had this different approach.
Dr. Lindley: I was doing 1099-type of work with urgent care so I could supplement my income while I was growing my own private practice.
Mr. Jekielek: I see. You decided to take a bit of a different approach pretty quickly from what I understand.
Dr. Lindley: Because literature was starting to come out saying that certain medications work. But even if we didn’t know anything about the medications that no one talks about, as a physician, if someone comes in with cough, or inflammation, or shortness of breath, there are other things we can try. If you are bleeding and it’s a small wound, you put a little bandaid. But if you’re bleeding a lot, you suture that wound.
There are things we can try, even if you don’t know exactly what’s going to end up working. The fact that we were told not to try anything, but to send people to the hospital didn’t make sense. A lot of private practices just closed their doors and until they figured out how to use the telemedicine component, they didn’t really even do much.
Mr. Jekielek: What did you do?
Dr. Lindley: I just did my job. In my private practice, I saw everyone, I took care of them, took phone calls, and they came to my office if needed. In the other job that I was supplementing, I did what the administration told me to do.
Mr. Jekielek: How many Covid patients did you come across in your private practice?
Dr. Lindley: I live in a small town, so I’m not sure exactly how many exactly I had, maybe in the 100s, 200s. Initially, I pretty much just did my job. Then eventually, I got a little bit more, I don’t want to say daring, but maybe braver, and put myself on the FLCCC [Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance] list and AAPS [American Association of Pharmaceutical Scientists] online list. Then, people started calling me from all over Texas.
Mr. Jekielek: All right. I want to also add that you’re pretty active in the physician’s community. You’re a small town doctor, but you actually have a lot of contacts and you work with a lot of people. You even head up one of the Texas physicians associations. What were you hearing from other people?
Dr. Lindley: I was lucky enough to really know Peter McCullough and Ryan Cole before this, so it was easy to hear what they were doing and what was happening. Even before COVID, I did a lot of legislative work in DC, because I always realized the way the medicine was going, there was a short track to try to achieve socialized type of medicine. Whether you call it Obamacare, or Medicare for all, or whatever plan Bernie Sanders had, those types of things don’t work because healthcare is a bureaucracy.
You have a lot of people behind the scenes making rules and making decisions that have nothing to do with patient care. When Covid hit, we pretty much just started talking to each other. We would say, “I tried this, what did you try? What did you do when you had this?” It was almost learning as you go, until we all figured out together how to come up with the different protocols. Then once you start treating, it wasn’t a big deal. None of my patients, thank goodness, passed away. I only had two that ended up in a hospital, but mainly because they didn’t start medication right away.
Mr. Jekielek: Before Covid, you had a network of people that were suspicious of the socialized medicine model. Is that right? What were you actually working to do?
Dr. Lindley: Before Covid, during the Trump administration, one of the things that his administration liked was the free market-type of medicine, which is what direct primary care and direct specialty care is. It’s a membership fee and patients have 24/7 access to me. We also have a network of labs that are affordable, and radiology that’s affordable. There is the Surgery Center of Oklahoma which you can find online, where they do surgeries for cash.
There’s a dropdown box and you choose which surgery you’re going to have, and it tells you exactly how much it’s going to cost. That administration figured out that you can have Medicare and Medicaid for people who need it, but when it comes to younger individuals, the free market will work. You can get blood work for $3 to $4, X-rays for $25 to $40, CAT scans for $150 to $250, and an MRI for $400. Even with people who have insurance, some of them actually end up paying cash, because their deductible is too high.
Mr. Jekielek: Just for comparison, these numbers in the socialized system are how much larger?
Dr. Lindley: It’s really interesting because the hospital systems just arbitrarily decide what they’re going to bill, because no matter what they bill, insurance is just going to give them so much. Let’s say they decide to bill $1,000 for an MRI. The insurance will say, “Okay, we’ll pay you $750.” But then, once the insurance says how much they’re going to pay, they end up charging people who don’t have insurance that same amount, $750.
In reality, on a free market, that’s something you can get for $350, $400, $450, depending on where you go. People don’t realize that you can negotiate. Even at a hospital, if you don’t have insurance and then you end up with this huge bill, you can go back and negotiate, because they want to get paid. They really don’t want to not get paid at all.
Mr. Jekielek: It’s fascinating. I’m Canadian, as many of our viewers know, and I come from a country where it was just a given that socialized medicine is the greater good. This is how things should be and what are those Americans across the border doing? It’s interesting to hear about this.
Dr. Lindley: One of the reasons I always hated the idea of socialized medicine, is because if you need a knee replacement or if you need something that’s not urgent, depending what type of demand they have, you might have to wait months to get on the list to have a surgery. Here in the United States, if you have insurance or if you go to the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, you can have this done when you need it. You don’t have to wait months for it.
Especially in the American market, the supply and demand is going to cause such an imbalance. There is no way of really getting care that you need appropriately, if you have someone behind the scenes deciding if you need it. That’s why I like my model because it’s me and the patient. We decide what’s best for them. We don’t have this third party who tells us, “You can have this, but you cannot have that.”
Mr. Jekielek: In your view, how does this account for the people that can’t afford some of these lifesaving procedures? This is always brought up, “We want to be fair to everyone.”
Dr. Lindley: That’s why we do have Medicaid for people who cannot afford insurance. You have Medicare for the elderly. But even then you have to be very careful how it’s administered, because there’s a lot of money wasted in those programs.
Mr. Jekielek: Let’s jump back to the pandemic. You signed yourself up, and now you’re working with these different groups to do early treatment for Covid. What happened to you? What happened to your practice?
Dr. Lindley: My practice just stayed, if anything, it actually got larger. When the pandemic hit, I always realized something was different this time around, this was global. Every country did exactly the same thing. One president would say it’s something, another leader would say exactly the same thing,”Build Back Better.” They all had the same message that never made sense.
When I decided to get involved, I reached out to different places, especially the UK and Australia, to see what’s happening there, what they’re doing, and what things they are struggling with. We were all doing the same circles. Now, there’s talk of digital passports that has been going on in the UK, and Canada is trying to introduce it. Some states here, silently, have the digital passport already in their system, but they just haven’t turned it on. There is this global response.
Mr. Jekielek: Which passport are you talking about specifically, vaccine passports?
Dr. Lindley: I’m talking about vaccine passports. Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: That’s right. Okay.
Dr. Lindley: Vaccine passports are going to lead to all these social credit scores and different things like that. It was very important for me to connect with physicians and other groups around the world. Actually, I was on the steering committee of the World Council for Health for a little while, because I felt that we have to respond globally, not only in our own little communities.
Mr. Jekielek: Let’s go back to your upbringing in a communist country, the former Yugoslavia. This has informed your viewpoint around all these things and I want you to tell me about that.
Dr. Lindley: I saw the pandemic through two eyes. One was as a doctor, and when we came to that point where they told us pretty much to stand back and tell patients to go to the ER if they can’t breathe, that didn’t make sense to me. I started seeing it through different eyes, and that was the eyes of someone who grew up under communism. What I started recognizing was fear—watching TV from China, from New York, the numbers, how many died, and all those things that were just staring at us.
Then, they said, “You have to stay home.” Everything was closed, school was closed, and that never made sense. Churches were closed, everything was closed. Only essential workers could go out, which was weird. I’ve never stayed home because I was considered an essential worker. But it was really weird how this virus just shut down the whole world. I started recognizing the fear and the isolation. Then, we started negotiating; if you are six feet apart, you can stay in line, and you can go to the store.
I remember some stores would be open early so the elderly could come. They said, “If you wear a mask, you can start doing more things.” Eventually, there came this newer technology. If you get vaccinated, you can travel, and then you can go see your loved ones.
I recognized that as the tactics of totalitarianism. That’s really what happens. The state makes you fear something really bad, and then they isolate you so you cannot discuss what’s going on. They start telling you, “If you do this, I’ll give you a little bit of that,” until it gets to the point that you can’t do anything unless they give you permission.
Mr. Jekielek: There seems to be this implicit assumption that it’s up to the government to decide how many rights you have, which is the upside-down version of what it’s supposed to be, at least in free countries.
Dr. Lindley: Yes. It was very hard for me to recognize that. In a sense, once I recognized it, it really undermined my belief in the United States, and in what the United States stands for. I live in Texas, and even in Texas, we had our lockdown. Luckily, it didn’t last long. Our governor realized that Texans would not put up with it for too much longer.
There was this willingness to surrender it all, in order to feel this false sense of security. If anyone has a child, when your kids have RSV [Respiratory Syncytial Virus] or a cold or a flu, you all know it just spreads. Everyone gets it, then we all get better, and we’re all fine.
To believe that locking us down is going to somehow lock this virus—what is the virus really going to do? Just vanish, and it’s gone? The whole idea of it never made sense. But the fact that we all so willingly gave up our freedom to feel a little safe, that made me sad. I didn’t think Americans would do that.
Mr. Jekielek: Do you remember a specific moment when this dawned on you?
Dr. Lindley: You watch those movies when people are in a different country, something happens to them and they go to the embassy and the embassy saves them. Even before Covid, actually one year before Covid, I was in Croatia with my kids, and I did something that you never should do. I had my passport and everything with me in my bag. I was keeping track of my boys and wasn’t paying attention to my bag and someone took everything out.
I lost my passport, our credit cards, and money. We were American citizens and I called the embassy for help and they were not very helpful. I jumped through hoops to actually get everything back. If I wasn’t with my family, I don’t know how I would’ve done it. But that was the first time I started feeling, “It doesn’t work this way.” Then, when Covid happened, I understood, “two weeks,” for a brief moment because of what was going on in New York.
But when they extended those two weeks, for me it was the governor from Michigan. She said that you cannot go buy seeds at Walmart, and she actually put tape around those seeds. I said, “What does this have to do with Covid?” It was all about control. It was all about making people do what they wanted us to do. That was when I completely knew that this had nothing to do with the illness. It had to do with our government taking control of our lives.
Mr. Jekielek: You were also quite outspoken about this.
Dr. Lindley: Yes, because Americans might not realize this, but for people like me and for people in Cuba, and for people all over the world, America is a beacon of hope. It’s a place where we were always told you can be whatever you want to be. You can be this person who is born in poverty, but you can become the president, or you can become an astronaut. You can do whatever you want as long as you wish it.
Mr. Jekielek: Or an osteopathic doctor.
Dr. Lindley: Yes, exactly. Freedom is the most important thing in the world. If you don’t have freedom, do you really have a life? The fact that we were willing to give it up so easily, it’s just very discouraging. Because if there’s no United States of America, is there anything else that you can really look up to? I don’t want to sound arrogant, but this is really, truly an incredible country with so much to give.
When there is a disaster, the American people are the first ones to give. Even the people who don’t have much, they will give. We really have to think about this republic that our forefathers created. We can’t give it up. We have to leave a better future for our kids. The way we’re going, some days I’m not sure we will be able to.
Mr. Jekielek: You mentioned this negotiation for rights, which was one of these red flags that reminded you, “Wait, I recognize this from before.” Are there other things of this nature that you’ve noticed?
Dr. Lindley: The hardest thing that I’ve seen is that obviously physicians have been blamed for a lot of what has happened, in the sense that there is a loss of trust in physicians. But I would say it has happened in every industry. The same thing with lawyers, the lawyers really didn’t do much. We have few that are doing the hard work of many, but we need all of them to wake up.
With civil rights, one thing that actually gave me a huge pause was last year when the Department of Homeland Security said, “If you speak out about Covid or elections, you’re considered a terrorist.” That hit me so hard. We were actually supposed to go to speak at an event a couple days later. It hit me so hard and I have a great imagination. I’m thinking to myself “We’re going to go to this event.”
“There’s going to be FBI agents in the audience and I might say something that they think it’s bad and I’m going to end up in jail.” I have a really vivid imagination, and I went through this cycle of grieving and being scared. Then, I realized it doesn’t matter how hard it is, we have to speak the truth.
I wasn’t free to say things while living under communism, and now I’m going to die in this country that’s going to consider me a terrorist if I say something. It hit me very hard. The thing that stuck to me is our kids deserve the same opportunities we all were given. If you don’t fight for them, they’re not going to have them.
Mr. Jekielek: Often when I speak with people about this they will say, “I have to do this. It’s for the kids.”
Dr. Lindley: I have five.
Mr. Jekielek: That’s interesting, because I’m just thinking of someone else who has five kids, who also told me, “What else would I do?”
Dr. Lindley: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: They said, “A lot of people have chosen to do very different things, or just ignore it, or just ride it out.” You have this broad network of people, not just in the U.S. but also in Canada and across the world, who are in the mode of challenging this way of dealing with the disease and this whole outlook. What is it that makes these people different? It’s a significant group, but it’s not the majority of the population.
Dr. Lindley: I’m not sure, except that I get messages from people I don’t know at all. They’ll send me an email or sometimes they’ll send me a note. Someone wrote a verse for me. It says, “Perhaps you were born for such a time like this.” I thought about it and it’s true.
The life I had before led me to this moment in time to recognize the dangers ahead and that’s the reason that I need to speak out. It is for my children and it is for the future that I would like them to have. Most people who are standing up or saying things are doing it for someone else, not for themselves.
Mr. Jekielek: Surely there’s more people out there that are living for others. It’s not necessarily that people aren’t curious. There is just a significant portion of the population that just doesn’t see this. In societies like communist China, which I’m very familiar with, or the country my parents came from, communist Poland, the tools of information, management, and propaganda were very strong. This is something that I’ve observed here as well and I know you have. Do you see any parallels here with what you saw in former Yugoslavia?
Dr. Lindley: Institutions, our governments leaders, everyone has really employed these global psyops, that vaccines are safe and effective. That narrative has been broken down so many times, but they’re still going with it. The same thing with masks. We have proven so many times that masks don’t work, but they’re still pushing for it. Dr. Walensky said that the CDC is actually going to encourage masks in school.
People are afraid, that’s the thing, and some people are still living in that fear. They did a great job with the numbers on deaths. I don’t know if you remember watching Fox News or whatever station, there was always that ticker on the bottom that kept on saying how many people died in a day, in a week, in a month. That number kept on going up and up, and up and up, and up.
People don’t really realize how much stimuli they had. Then, what was happening in New York, and in China with the people that were lying on the streets, they did a great job initially with that fear. I would say that some people, especially older ones, still have that fear. We did it to our kids. We told our kids that they cannot go see their grandparents because they could kill their grandparents. We told the children they have to wear a mask.
Actually, one of the things they say all the time, the masks on children served a purpose. The purpose was to make those children compliant. There were pictures of kids walking outside, and they had to put the hand on the shoulder of the other child, so they know they have to keep their distance. That all was done to make our children compliant at that young age, and they learned these things very easily.
All that was a big psyop. There is still a residual fear left. It’s dissipating, but especially with older generations, even in Texas, I still see some of them wearing a mask because they feel more comfortable. In the same way communist countries did it to their own citizens, our countries have done it to us with this pandemic.
Mr. Jekielek: Another thing that you’ve been writing and speaking about is these international structures. In particular, the WHO is working on further tools of control or facilitating compliance. Please tell me about that.
Dr. Lindley: The WHO was initially funded by the United Nations to be the health arm of the United Nations. It was initially funded by the countries that were members based on their GDP [Gross Domestic Product]. But in recent years they’re funded by these private partnership companies. You have the Gavi Foundation, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the Wellcome Trust, and you have different countries that still fund them.
With this pandemic, there is a connection between all of these groups. What WHO would like to accomplish is something they call “One Health, One World.” They would like to have global control over any future pandemics that happen. There are two venues where they’re trying to reach that. One is the pandemic treaty that they are negotiating right now, and that would go to the World Health Assembly to be voted on in 2024.
Once it’s voted on, it goes to different member countries to get ratified. In the United States, you need two-thirds of the Senate for the pandemic treaty to be ratified, so I’m not too worried about that. I don’t think they’ll ever be able to get two-thirds of the Senate to say yes, but you never know. The other venue is something called International Health Regulations.
Those were initially established in 1969, but then they were amended in 2005. That’s an international law. Currently, they’re working on amendments to that to be voted on this May. Some of those amendments would allow the Director General, Tedros at this time, to actually have a lot more control on how every country responds. If there is a future pandemic with the amendments that are on the table, it would give him tools for the WHO to come in and actually take over the response of the country to the pandemic, which means that they can tell you what type of tests, medications, or vaccines you can use. Obviously, that would interfere with sovereignty of nations, and it’s something that everyone is really watching and making sure it doesn’t pass.
Mr. Jekielek: What are the networks you’re involved in doing about this?
Dr. Lindley: Currently, I work with Global Covid Summit physicians, and we do a lot of educational seminars and talks all over the world. We just came from Sweden where we had a conference. And then, there is FLCCC and the other networks. But specifically, we’re trying to raise awareness on what’s happening with the vaccine in your population, because not many physicians will actually treat vaccine injuries.
I know you had Brie Dressen on recently. I worked with Brie and Joel Wallskog from React19. They’re finding that when you see a physician, a lot of them will not acknowledge that what has happened is because of the vaccine. Now, they’re having to navigate this world by themselves. Our goal is to create a network of physicians who will help and make sure that the vaccine injured are taken care of.
Mr. Jekielek: You have been advocating for a new oath for doctors, correct?
Dr. Lindley: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: I thought the Hippocratic Oath was actually pretty good, if only it was followed. Please tell me about what it is and why.
Dr. Lindley: I wrote a new Hippocratic Oath called, “The Oath of a Medicus.” Medicus means a healer. One of the things that we’ve lost during this pandemic is the trust. People don’t talk about informed consent enough. But if you really think about it, the Achilles heel of the whole program is the informed consent. It was not given because no one knew what was in the vaccine.
No one knew what could happen with the vaccine. Even if this was EUA [Emergency Use Authorization] and experimental, you still have to disclose to the best of your knowledge. According to the documents, they did know lots of things when they were giving the vaccine.
Mr. Jekielek: The companies knew, but the package inserts were blank.
Dr. Lindley: They were blank, exactly.
Mr. Jekielek: Right.
Dr. Lindley: The basis of the oath is just restoring the trust and giving a personal pledge to the patient, that their wishes and their desires matter above all, and that we would never discriminate. I would never discriminate against anything. We haven’t touched on the new Z code, but that new Z code is going to label people as vaccinated or not. There were even places where you couldn’t have transplant surgery because you were not vaccinated. It’s very difficult for me that for people who need an organ to survive, there are hospitals who would say no to that. That’s really in contradiction to our oath, so that’s why I decided to rewrite it. At the end it says, “I solemnly pledge to stand by the oath and advocate for the patient,” because that’s our job—to advocate for the patient.
Mr. Jekielek: This is something that is so bizarre. Let’s just say for argument’s sake that not taking this vaccine was a really bad health decision. People make all sorts of really bad decisions about their health all the time, but no one has ever said, “Sorry, I’m not going to treat you because I don’t like your lifestyle.”
Dr. Lindley: That just honestly never made sense. Even when patients are smokers, they come to see you and you have to counsel them that they shouldn’t smoke. But you didn’t stop seeing them if they developed cancer because of their smoking. You still saw them and you took care of them. You might give them a little bit of a lecture why they should have stopped, but you still took care of them.
It’s like we created a class that’s a lesser class; the people who are not vaccinated. I know this is controversial, but when the whole thing started with the vaccine, I said to a lot of my friends, “This is going to be the yellow star.” The vaccine status is going to become the yellow star. That’s what it has become. If you’re not vaccinated, it’s almost as if you have the yellow star like they had in Nazi Germany.
Mr. Jekielek: Tell me about these codes. You started talking about new codes that identify someone as being unvaccinated, and there are some others, but why is this significant? How is this different from the past?
Dr. Lindley: With these new codes, there are several categories and you can be unvaccinated for religious reasons if you have a religious exemption, or for medical reasons like medical exemption, or you can just be unvaccinated and they don’t know the reason why. We’ve never labeled something that does not have the disease status. This is not the disease status, this is just that you’re not vaccinated.
This will potentially label someone that they have not been vaccinated. But interestingly, we don’t have a code for the vaccinated. There is a concern that this can be used for whatever reasons. In the past, if you are not vaccinated for MMR or for hepatitis B, we don’t have a code to say you’re not vaccinated for MMR or hepatitis B, but for this one we do. We’ve done everything differently with this one.
Mr. Jekielek: You’re talking about the genetic COVID vaccines?
Dr. Lindley: Yes.
Mr. Jekielek: What are the implications of this? You’re saying that never before in history have we put codes on a non-disease.
Dr. Lindley: I don’t think anyone knows what the implications are. We can speculate, but no one truly knows why they’re there. If I wanted to speculate, I would say so they can be tracked. For whatever reason, I can know that you, someone else, or this person chose not to be vaccinated. If you want to go further, let’s say later on we have digital social scoring that can be brought into that. It’s hard to tell what the purpose is, it’s just something we haven’t done.
Mr. Jekielek: You’re talking about how this could be part of a social credit system.
Dr. Lindley: Some kind of tracking system.
Mr. Jekielek: Which discriminates based on your status. Okay. Here we are, a lot of people are ready to move on from the pandemic. Actually, there are many of these emergency restrictions apparently coming to an end. What are the next steps for society? What do we need to do here from your viewpoint?
Dr. Lindley: I’m not sure. In a sense, I think about it a lot. They talk about Marburg virus now. They talked about Ebola recently, and the Avian flu has been in the news. They’re still trying to figure out how to keep on going. They’re creating a lot of new vaccines on the same mRNA platform. From everything we’ve seen, that’s the platform we should not use.
We have way too many people who are injured, people that passed away, and way too many questions with this. During these past three years, they have taken a lot of our freedoms away, some that we don’t even realize, and I don’t think they’re going to give them back. They’re not just going to say, “Hey, you can have this back.”
Mr. Jekielek: Why not?
Dr. Lindley: Once the government takes something away, they just don’t give it back.
Mr. Jekielek: But the government is us, isn’t it?
Dr. Lindley: I used to think so. Let’s just say that not every vote seems to be equal where you live. I want to believe in the system and part of me still does, but I’m not sure that we’ll ever get back to normal, whatever that normal is. This is our new reality. It’s time for people to get more involved in their own communities. We can’t influence too much what’s happening in DC. We’ve all seen the votes that are coming out and all that. There’s too much partisanship and too many squabbles there.
The best thing to do is get involved in your own community with your family, with churches, with school, run for offices and make influences locally. If we don’t do that, we’ll lose this country completely. Because they like to say, “We’re doing this for your own good.” A lot of places talk about guaranteed income and things like that, sure. But once you start getting into these programs, you’re going to have to do these things to get that.
Mr. Jekielek: Right. You’re talking about universal basic income and you’re saying, “If you want that, you’re going to need to get your status right.”
Dr. Lindley: The code we talked about before could be used for that.
Mr. Jekielek: Right.
Dr. Lindley: You have this code, so you can get this amount of money, but you can only get that amount monthly. When you have someone else deciding what you can and cannot have, that’s when you stop. You really don’t have any more freedom.
Mr. Jekielek: As we’ve discussed, there’s been a lot of trust lost in the medical system. I don’t know if everyone is going to be saying the Oath of Medicus as you described. For the typical person who’s struggling out there, who might be struggling with this and saying. “Maybe I need medical help. I don’t know, can I really trust my doctor?” What do you say to them?
Dr. Lindley: When you go to fix your car, you find the best mechanic around. You ask your neighbors, you get recommendations, you decide the price, and how much you can pay. It’s the same thing. Don’t just go to anyone. Interview your doctor, decide if you share the same values and if you don’t, then don’t go. It’s really that simple. The problem is we’ve elevated medicine to this different status than the rest of the world. People used to almost worship their doctors, but doctors were normal people.
Someone might like me, someone might hate me, and you just have to do the same thing. You choose who your physician is going to be, because your physician is supposed to partner with you when it comes to your health. I always tell my patients, “I can lead you to water, but I can’t make you drink, and I don’t want to make you drink.” I have five kids, and I don’t need another child. That’s the type of a relationship you want to have, a friend as your physician, so find someone you trust.
Mr. Jekielek: Dr. Kat Lindley, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show.
Dr. Lindley: Thank you.
Mr. Jekielek: Thank you all for joining Dr. Kat Lindley and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I’m your host, Jan Jekielek.
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